Ep. 17: Sins of the Father | Exploring 3 Complex Fathers in Films

Released on Father's Day, we're diving into some of cinema's most complicated fathers and father-child relationships.

From the raw emotional wounds of Honey Boy, to the heartbreaking memories of Aftersun, to the quiet devastation of this year's Omaha, we explore how these films portray fathers who love deeply, fail profoundly, and leave lasting impacts on the people closest to them.This video is about Video

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

All right. So today's episode is one I've been really excited to do, which is one of the films we'll be talking about. Happens to be one of my my favorite film of the decade, actually. And we're going to be talking about three films that to me all feel connected, even though they're very different movies. Honey Boy, Omaha, and After Sun. And what ties them together is this idea of silent struggle, fathers trying to hold it together, something failing, sometimes trying their best, sometimes disappearing emotionally right in front of their kids. And what I really want to dig into today is not just what happens in these movies, but what the kids in these stories see versus what we as adults now recognize and versus what them as adults recognize. Let's start with Honey Boy. Um, because that film hits you right in the gut when it comes to complicated father relationships. Honey Boy feels like the most direct confrontation with fatherhood out of the three. It's messy, it's loud, uh, it's uncomfortable. But what makes it powerful is that it's not just about trauma, it's about love tangled up inside that trauma.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

I think it's probably important to call out that this movie was made by Shia LaBeouf, and it's loosely based on his experience growing up with his dad. So for anyone who has not seen the movie, uh he, Shia LaBeouf, plays the dad in this movie. This film certainly sheds light on who Shia is as a person. I mean, obviously, he's someone who's very troubled and uh I mean, even very recently has been in the news for you know his behavior. Um the the film itself, like watching this, it was a very uncomfortable watch for me. Um and I certainly have it gave me a lot of empathy for him in that regard. Um because you know it's I I I feel like this had to be a very cathartic experience for him to make this film. Um and it probably allowed him to especially portraying his father in this movie, allowed him to process a lot of the you know hurt uh that he you know has dealt with his entire life, uh, from the abuse that he suffered at the hands of his father and being a child star and basically being the breadwinner in his family as a you know preteen. Um so you know, in that regard, uh yeah, this was just a really un an uncomfortable watch for me. It was it's tough to watch a child go through that. You know, there things that stuck out is just like the how normal it was for the kid to just be smoking cigarettes and he's like asking his dad for cigarettes, and he's just willingly giving he basically hits carrying around his own pack of cigarettes as a 12-year-old. Um and obviously there's like the physical abuse, uh, it's very the the child is obviously a part of this big brother program and has like a more stable father figure in his life um that you know takes him to games and is just like there to be a more positive influence, uh, which is acknowledged by Shia LeBeuf's character in this, which there's a lot of resentment there, obviously. Um so for me, one of the most uncomfortable scenes to watch is obviously when they meet uh the mentor and Shia LaBeouf's character, and they're at the pool and he's making burgers, and you know, he basically tells him to fuck off and throws him in the pool, and it's just so I don't know, it's so uncomfortable. Uh to me, this was a really, really it was a tough watch. Like I I I felt like it was again, like I said, it gave me a lot of empathy, but it's also kind of disheartening and disappointing to know that you know him as a person in real life has kind of just continued repeated the cycle and has had struggles to get help on his own. Um so yeah, it was it was a tough watch. Great performances all around though.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yeah, I I think that's uh because I I watched this back in 2019. I actually ended up watching it twice in the same week. Um, and so I revisited it this past week. And you know, Spencer, like you're saying, with the with recent news and just how we've seen Shia continue um like struggle with addiction and um abuse, it's it's even harder watching it um this past week because it like the it's it's I guess psychodrama is a form of therapy. So this was suggested by like while he was in rehab um to write out his life, and that's what ended up getting adapted into the film. Um and with psychodrama, you kind of role-play as people in your life or your previous self to kind of relive these experiences to be able to um work work through them. And I I think by turning it into a film, it might lose you know, that that might become almost additional trauma to him because a lot of the stuff he experienced as a kid was was having to act, not necessarily because he wanted to, but what he felt like he needed to to support his family, and then for the therapy to also be turned into a film, probably was not very healthy for him. So I I was even reading he describes his childhood as a good childhood, and it's like he's he's still not willing to fully you know work through that he was abused, and then you see that come come up later. So it really is a tough movie, even if the soundtrack makes it seem softer than it is.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

I feel like one thing this movie captured well about like difficult or obviously abusive relationships, but um is just the amount of like walking on eggshells and 180s and gaslighting and things that can happen even in the same moment or same conversations. Um, and that was the thing that I kept just observing, and I felt like it was just channeled really well. Um like I think early in the film he mentions that uh being invited to like a I think a Dodgers game or something, baseball game, and asking for some of the per diem from his dad, and it was like sandwiched in this like more like obviously that's a very like trivial thing to ask for money from your family, but then you know, again, with knowing that relationship, it's like, oh, who how who it how is he gonna react? Um, but then it just became this quick little moment of like, oh, he hands him the cash, and you know, you're kind of just like holding your breath like at different points throughout the film because you're like, I don't how is he gonna react to like his son saying different things? Um so yeah, I I it captured that sort of 180 that happens with you know, again, difficult or abusive people. Um obviously, from like the self-referential aspect of it for the writer of the film being Shia. Um, you know, it makes it you just question how much of it is intended to explain things versus excuse his own behavior at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

What did we uh I'm just like curious how how we rated this movie. I think I gave it three and a half stars. So I don't know. To me, it's like a solid movie, um, not amazing, but yeah, I thought like like what stuck out is like the performances Shia, Lucas Hedges, our guy, Noah Jup, um from Hamnet, um as a child was really, really strong. So like performance-wise, and yeah, I think the fact that it made me so uncomfortable and it it felt pretty real uh to me, you know. Yeah, 3.5.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Yes, seven years ago I gave it a four, and I wish I wrote a little more about it because I was like, you know, I don't know if that means much now, but um I think I would stick with the four, and I still I I think I stand by it being good as therapy. I wish he maybe kept it to himself and just viewed viewed viewed it with his dad, because again, it it becomes a very um it becomes a different conversation when you release this to the public, I think. Um and you yeah, you kind of start to question the motives of it, like like Nick was just saying. But I think Solid Forks, I agree. It's a very unique original story, and then the performances all around were great.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

I also uh because FKH Wiggs was in it, and she's the main driver of the alleged abuse allegations, I guess. So I don't it's hard to detach all of that from the movie. And this that was my first time watching it was yesterday. So I mean I didn't watch it when it came out.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Um I definitely had more empathy for Shia LaBeouf and the character itself when I first watched this movie years ago. Uh maybe that's that explains my um my previous four stars at three and a half now. But uh I also ordered these three films that we'll be talking about today uh from my least favorite to favorite. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

I I would if I'm being objective as possible, I would give it a three, three and a half. But yeah, I mean I won't re-watch it, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

So Omaha then. Um what makes Omaha interesting uh to bring into this conversation is that it feels like the opposite of Honey Boy in tone. Honey boy is loud and it's emotional and very explosive as well. Ummaha is quiet, it's reserved, almost suffocating in a way, and how it feels. Uh, but underneath like all that stillness, you feel the same thing. A father who's carrying something heavy, something his child, his children in this case can't fully understand. I I didn't know where this movie was going until that scene with the with the golden retriever. And to think that that wasn't the most traumatizing scene in this movie uh says a lot. But yeah, want to hear your thoughts about it. I I know. Yeah, uh, wanted to turn it off immediately after that one, but uh after that scene. But yeah, let's hear your thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

I do remember reading about the legislation in Nebraska at that time.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Um, and obviously that had to be amended or corrected. Um and obviously This was my first time hearing about it, so I I that's why I didn't know the significance of Omaha and Nebraska were yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Well, the the interesting thing, even though I had read about it and was familiar, I didn't connect the dots of that that that was their journey going to that specific place for that reason until it happened. Um yeah, I mean obviously a really mind-blowing performance is all around and um tackling like such an insanely difficult topic. Um, and I feel like it did it in a really like grounded way where you feel the conflict from all angles. It didn't feel like you know, someone that had just given up and wasn't concerned about why they gave up.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

I mean, I I did I did really enjoy it as much as I was extremely devastated when the film ended. Um I think, yeah, I I just think it was, and this is one of my biggest uh problems with some of the reviews I was reading is, and it's kind of a problem that we see a lot, is when people watch a movie and then they label it with like grief porn and um saying it's manipulative. And I think that is actually one of the reasons I enjoyed it, is because there were so many moments of joy where John Mugaro's character um is, you know, he he feels like he was brought to this point, but it's it's not necessarily what he wanted to do by any means, like he wasn't proud of it, and so that's where you can kind of see him dissociating throughout, as much as he's also trying to still give the kids uh like final bits of happiness. And and I and in an interview with the director, he did say that um like someone asked him what the the meaning, uh, the meaning of the movie is, and Cole Webley said it's it's what Megaro says at the end, which is I think I think I need help. Um so like it takes to the very end, and for um a decision that he can't overturn to finally admit that. Um but but yeah, the the ending. I I was on my couch with like a drenched face for at least th 30 minutes afterwards. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

This one uh what I appreciated about this one was the fact that they're like it's so simple and like you don't you don't really get any backstory uh about like why they're in this position. You're just basically taken on this journey from the day he wakes his kids up saying, We gotta go um through the road trip. So um I I liked that aspect of it. Um you know it requires you to sort of fill in the blanks yourself and um you know it sort of keeps you guessing. Um and the film moves along for me, it sort of like carries this sense of dread throughout the whole thing. Like you're just wondering what exactly is he doing? Is like for like that for me, I was like going through this cycle of is he gonna kill his kids? Is he gonna kill himself? What's in Omaha? Is he dropping them off with a family member? Um, and then you you get to the end. For me, I was just like so mad. Uh I was like, that was your plan? Like what what what why? Like what what what exactly were you gonna do after you, you know, just leave your kids um at the hospital? This is like the the classic um, you know, men will do anything but go to therapy. Like to me, that's like what I was thinking about as I was as I was like witnessing this. Um not to say that I didn't uh enjoy the film, but um and yes, I I was totally oblivious to that law in Nebraska, so I'm glad that like it clarified that, like you know, pre-credits like about how there's this you know law that was passed in Nebraska, uh and that's sort of why like the the driving force behind like why people would go to Nebraska for this. Um so like for me, like I felt myself just like I I hated the main character, uh, and mostly just because I felt like really, really bad that for for the kids uh in this. Um and speaking of kids, I thought the another thing that stuck out to me was like the I felt like the kids were really good at portraying normal, real kids. Like the the conversations that they would have, like with themselves and their dad, and like the like how they would behave just felt so like real natural normal, yes. Um like sometimes like when you have like kids as like a central part of a story, like it can be a little bit you know, like they're like overdone or in a way. Um but this just like it felt so normal, like play and pretend. Yeah, yeah. I feel like they they behaved exactly how any normal kid would in this situation, and the dialogue felt super realistic, and like the the discomfort that was very clearly they were experiencing through like wondering why are we going to Omaha, what's in Nebraska? Um that felt that felt super real to me. Uh so that's like one of the the aspects of it that I took away is like being very strong about this film.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah, I think the other thing that again, and I think I said performances being grounded earlier and like keeping it feeling like real was that last interaction with the nurse and just the confrontation of this isn't like some easy thing to just you know, you came back to the hospital, and now you're gonna yeah re regain custody or custody of your children or anything like that. It's this amount of paperwork, they're gonna be held by child services for weeks or months. Um, and she confronts him like head on with that and doesn't like sugarcoat that and he's also processing not just his own grief and like regret for making that decision, but then the reality that it is an uphill battle um where he thought it was going to be some quick fix to offload his children onto the care of other people, and it's like no, I mean, you've really just created new problems, and you have to like confront whatever it is in yourself that you know led you to that decision, and now you're gonna have to continue to do that work, and then this other work to get access to your children again.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Sean Magaro, uh, he's so good in this movie. He was my favorite part of Past Lives. Um, I mean, which is a I mean, everything about past lives is just perfect to me.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

Yeah, but that's the only other thing that I know him from, too. So I don't know what else.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Um I I remember him from uh Orange is a New Black. He was uh a boyfriend of like one of the inmates. I I just continuously am impressed by by him, and I'm so glad that he has like a lead performance that you know he can work with.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

From like an element of like symbolism that I noticed was around the car and then like needing to push the car to start it a lot of times, and that's like the final shot you get before they go to that pre-credits note about the law that passed in Nebraska is like of the car parked on the street. But I feel like it was just really emblematic of not just the struggle of him like wanting to make that decision or like go through with it, but it really was just the like stop, go or like push to make this difficult decision, or just certain plans being foiled and not starting or running um as he imagined. Um, but I'm curious y'all's thoughts on the car being sort of a symbol for that. Well, first off, it's like an older car, and a lot of times cars or clothing or sort things like that are obviously used to indicate like the time period or you know when something's taking place. Just at its face, you might have looked at the vehicle and said, Oh, this is like a really it's set in like the early 2000s, 90s or whatever. Um but then you know you see it's actually more closer to present day. Um and I think just the idea of the vehicle uh not running all the time and him needing his daughter to kind of help him give it that push.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Um that scene after abandoning his kids and yeah, when he had to move the car by himself and having visions of his daughter helping him. Yeah, I mean, everything about the last 20 minutes of that movie just gutted me. And it just took me by surprise because everything was so muted in the you know, the first hour and a half or so.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

Yeah, uh like the scene that kind of sticks out to me is like literally when that they're in the he parks and when he's getting ready to like take them into the the hospital, I guess. Um to me he was like it was very subtle, but he was very clearly having a panic attack about like what he was about to do. Um and yeah, that's like to be like when the Emotion like really was at its peak for me because it's like, okay, we're literally about to find out what exactly he's gonna do, and it's gonna be very traumatic.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

On to more sadness, After Sun honestly might be the quietest film of the three, but also um the one that hurts the most once it settles in, unlike Honey Boy, which you know the trauma is loud, or Omaha, where tension sits in the silence, which was half the movie was all about. After Sun is about memory, about looking back and realizing you missed something when you were a kid. But when you watch it as an adult, it feels like like grief, like regret, like trying to piece together who your parent really was. Like I said earlier, this is this is my favorite film of uh this decade thus far. Uh it just at first, when I first saw this like years ago, I I was devastated by the first viewing, but at the same time, like I it didn't really fully hit me until like after a few viewings. And I don't know. I'm I'm just curious to see uh to hear what your thoughts are. Uh especially you, Spencer, who watched this for the very first time a couple nights ago. And I know you tested me immediately after.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

Yeah. Um, so yes, Saturday was the first time I had ever seen this. Uh it completely blew me away. I was unprepared for how this movie would affect me emotionally. Uh, I I I knew going into it that it was gonna be sad. Um, and you know, generally I feel like when I know something like that, you can sort of you know equip yourself, kind of numb yourself a little bit to like what you're about to witness. Um and it almost always in those types of scenarios, I it doesn't affect me that much. Um like I can appreciate it for what it is, but this completely shattered the wall that I had unconscious unconsciously put up uh going into this. Um I yes, uh it just I have not stopped thinking about it since I finished watching it. I woke up the next day, it was the first thing I thought of. Um it just really got through to me on an emotional level, unlike any other film ever has, truly. It was to me, and to me, it's like astounding in that way. Um I like one of the things that I loved was like from a filmmaking perspective, I feel like the cinematography and the editing in this movie are just incredible. I I went back and looked at the Academy Award noms for this year because I was just curious if it like had gotten any nominations. And I I think that Paul Mascott was nominated, but um wasn't disappointed to see that it didn't get any like you know, cinematography or editing nominations, because like that was like one thing that really resonated with me was just like the camera work in this this movie was so unique and really tremendous, honestly. And like I I what I also loved about this was how it really doesn't hit you over the head with like I don't know, it just like to me it like assumes that the viewer is really smart, and so like there's a lot of subtle things in the film that um you know you don't like maybe like it can be easy to miss if you're not paying close attention to like the fact that this person is someone who's really struggling with you know mental illness, depression. Um you know, I obviously I uh one of the scenes that really highlights this is the one where they're in the hotel room and you know he's like brushing his teeth and he's asking the his daughter, like, you know, how was your day type of thing, and she's like explaining how oh it was a great day, and then starts to like talk about how she's like 12 in this movie, I think, or you know, she's very young, and she's like talking about how you know the way she describes the day is you know how it's like at the end of the day, like you had a great day, but then you're just sort of you still you feel very down, and it's very m clearly to him, the dad, uh like a symptom of depression, and he like he spits like the toothpaste and everything out on the mirror. Um because and then that's like an expression of frustration and anger, and I think he's just in that moment really has a lot of resentment towards himself because he recognizes that she as a child is struggling with the same things that that he is as an adult. Um there are so many different moments throughout this movie that really that are just so subtle in that regard, like highlighting the the impact that depression has on an individual. And I that's like one of the things that I loved about it was the fact that it's not it's not like overt and obvious and in your face, it's so subtle. Uh and really like the last few scenes are just completely devastating. And like the the dance scene and the way that that song under pressure is used in that moment and like the specific lyrics of that song, you know, this is our last dance, like oh man, like that combined combined with the like the final scene where he's at the airport and he's filming her walking to the plane to leave is wow. Like it would just this to me is like the movie. If I ever feel like I need a good cry, this is the one I'm gonna put on. Uh, because like I said, it just took totally broke through to me on an emotional level on like anything that ever has.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

It is downloaded on my phone, and I just I think I watch it one out of every three flights that I take just to like have a good cry. You're a masculine.

unknown 28:27

That's insane.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

And yeah, going back to that final dance scene uh with the perfect uh selection of like under pressure, uh, it just feels like memory and and and fantasy like colliding, like Sophie is trying to hold on to him, trying to reach him across the dance floor, trying to understand him. Um, you know, along with just like one of her final memories of her dad just having some pure joy across his face, which when he was dancing, um, it's just so devastating to me.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

I I'm gonna need like Paul Mescal's next project to be like a buddy cop comedy, a romantic comedy. I can't not associate him with just emotional pain and trauma now. He's he's um he's very good at making us sad with especially his recent projects, Hamnet, After Sun, All of Us Strangers, like everything is so emotionally heavy. Um, I'm gonna need him to um show that he can do a comedy or something. Uh so I I'm not so I'm not like sad every time I see him on screen.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah, one can really write a thesis on him doing all these sad uh sad movies. And what I hated about this past Oscar season is for as we all know, every Austri season, every like there's some hate campaigns against like the nominees or the would-be nominees, and for a little bit there, there was a hate campaign on like how untalented Paul Mescal is. And I think I was just spamming everyone's like tweets and um responding and saying, like, well, have you seen After Sun? It's just like how are you're so uninformed right now. And I I was just pissed off. But um I also wanted to just go back to like one of the scenes that uh that I just suddenly remembered um when he was purchasing a rug, which seems like you know, very small, but um like Callum uh buys something he probably couldn't afford. And at first it feels like that he just wants to give umself and like Sophie something nice, but like underneath it, like it feels like like guilt, and it feels like he's just trying to compensate for something he knows he can't fix. Um, and he was just his joy in just laying down on that rug and being able to like afford it and being able to buy it.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Um like obviously it was very expensive rug. Like to me, I took that as like he knows he's not gonna be around much longer, so it's like I I I'll just I'll just buy this rug because why not? I'm not gonna be around.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

They didn't buy it at first, right? Didn't he go back to the store to get it? So it was almost like accepting his fate at that point or his decisions.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

As we're talking about this movie right now, there's just like a bunch of moments from the film that are so well intertwined together.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

Yeah, and the scene where she uh Sophie has the Cam Porter in the hotel room and she's like got it trained on him, and it's about to be she's talking about how it's about to be his birthday, and she's like, What, you know, when you were when you were 11, what did you think, you know, your 30th or 30 whatever birthday was gonna be like and he just like shuts it down, shuts down the conversation completely and like doesn't answer the question and it's like turn that off. Um yeah, there's just like there's just so many subtle moments in this that um it's a devastating one, but just I can't believe I waited so long to watch this, uh, because it's uh easily one of my favorites of all time now.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Yeah, I I actually watched it early this morning, and so first time. Um and I think what's interesting about hearing y'all talk about it is I definitely think I had some sort of guard up during it because I I think I was like I think I think I thought there was gonna be uh you know like a louder moment near the end or something. And be same, yeah. I did too. And because it didn't happen, it it does become like it becomes very meditative. And so I think like I haven't even had much time to reflect on it. And then as y'all, as y'all walk me through a lot of these moments, I'm literally like catching myself trying not to cry because like you like it's it's so vivid while while being so quiet. And it's Charlotte Wells' debut, which I was just double checking that, yeah, yeah, which is absurd. I mean it it's it's so beautiful. Um and yeah, every scene y'all brought up, like I did, I did see it not too long ago, but I mean every scene y'all brought up, I could like paint, you know, I could paint it. It's so clear in my mind, and just um yeah, I think the way Paul Mescal acts as a young father, I think it was he 26 when he did this, but it's like yeah, everything about it I would label as perfect. It it really um yeah, I'm I probably will watch it honestly pretty soon uh for the second time.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yeah, like how you just explained it right now, Jack, was like my first reaction to the movie. Uh I don't remember being so moved by it nor emotional uh when I was watching the movie at first, but um after the movie and the morning after is was when I found myself like really thinking about the movie more and thinking about the characters and thinking about specific moments from the film and and how it moved me even more after the movie and just thinking about it. Um and it's just one of those movies that the more you uh the more times you see it, it it just grows richer.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Yeah, I as much as this affected me on one viewing, I feel like, and I'm like with you, Jack, I feel like this is a one I will want to revisit very soon. I I am worried about how I will react to watching it again, kind of knowing what's coming. Uh like I feel like it could hit just that much harder.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Well, watch it on your next flight.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

I cannot be around a hundred other people watching this movie. I don't I don't understand how you do that to yourself. Has she done anything since After Sun? Oh Charlotte? I'm curious. Like, would be I would love to continue to follow her career because that's an astounding debut. These were great choices for sad dad day.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Let's um thank you for joining us. Please visit us on our website, thesinifallmind.com, and subscribe to our YouTube channel at the Cinephon Mind and all our socials. Thanks again.